After reading Act III, reflect on the following critical argument: "Coriolanus's mother wants him to be more like her. Like Lady Macbeth, she is frustrated by the lack of opportunity for advancement given exclusively to men in her culture, and resolves, by way of revenge, to control and destroy through a man she can manipulate: her son." Do you agree? Why or why not? (Looking for some intellectual calories being burned in your response).
As always, to exceed expectations you need to respond to two others' posts.
Although I agree that Coriolanus's mother lives vicariously through her son, I don't think she wants to control and destroy. Given the time period, it's unlikely she feels there's revenge to be taken-- it was the unquestioned norm at the time, unfortunately, for women to be very passive. It's more likely that rather than vengefully standing up to a social injustice, she's just opportunistically participating in politics as a means of entertainment (women's lives were boring). Her nonchalance about risking her son's life when he's at war suggests that to her, politics is like a game. I also see very little evidence that his mother wants him to be more like her. Although Coriolanus lacks the ability to manipulate like she can, it's more likely that rather than hoping her son to develop into a better human being, she wants him to remain a pawn of hers.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Chloe. Good evidence to support the fact that it was all entertainment to her. She desires entertainment constantly, like in Act 1 when she tried to convince Virgilla that it is a good idea for them to get out of the house and do something entertaining while Coriolanus was at battle.
DeleteI agree. Her manipulating doesn't seem to be done maliciously, but she does want to maintain some power over Coriolanus.
DeleteI agree that she has no real desire for revenge. Even if she did it would be very difficult to manipulate Coriolanus enough for her benefit. She does want to sort of micro manage Coriolanus though as most mothers want to do to their sons.
DeleteI agree that she doesn't have any evil behind her actions. She's just bored and wants to stay involved in her son's life, as that is her form of entertainment.
DeleteI think Volumnia is very supportive of her son and wants him to succeed. If anything, she is challenging him to be a better leader. Volumnia already has a lot of power, and I think she is smart enough to try and at least remain a shadow under Coriolanus. I think the main reason she encourages him to fight is because she knows that Coriolanus would win and that would increase his fame and make his position more stable. Also Coriolanus does not remind me of a Buster Bluth.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your argument. I too think that Volumnia is extremely supportive of her son and loves to see him succeed. However, I think that the only power Volumnia has is a direct result of her son's success. Because of this, Volumnia might want to see her son succeed for the well being of both him and herself.
DeleteI agree that Volumnia is definitely very supportive of her son, like most mothers. I also agree with conor's statement that the only power she has is through Coriolanus and because of that, she wants to help him be a successful ruler.
DeleteI don't necessarily agree that her motives come from revenge, but I agree that she is trying to manipulate Coriolanus because she cannot participate in the politics of Rome. When she tries to convince Coriolanus to apologize to the people, she says "I would dissemble with my nature where / My fortunes and my friends at stake requir'd / I should do so in honour". She is telling him what she would do, but since she can't, she wants him to do the same. This shows how she is trying to have an effect on Roman politics through Coriolanus. She is advising him to take the only course of action that will keep him in power (apologizing) because she needs him in power in order to keep influencing the politics of Rome.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, Ryan. I don't think she wants power in Rome, I think her main goal is gaining more honor for her son. I think she is completely driven by love for her son, rather than desire for power or revenge.
DeleteI agree. I hadn't really thought about that way, but you make good points. I do think that Volumina wants to have some kind of power over the politics of Rome and she knows that Coriolanus is the key to that goal. Also, I agree that she is not motivated by revenge, but just by the desire to be involved in her son's life.
DeleteYes, she wants to have power for herself. Although she loves her son, the more power he has, the more potential power she has. You have no idea what she is capable of....
DeleteI disagree with this argument. Volumina, although she does describe some of her qualities that she thinks Coriolanus could use when addressing the mob, only does this in an attempt to help her son survive. In Act I, Volumina tells Coriolanus’ wife that her son’s life is dearer to her than the embrace of her deceased husband, or her own life. I think there is a difference between love and utter devotion to an offspring and controlling a man for her agenda. Her life is centered on her son. She is incredibly proud of him, and I think she’s rather obsessed with the entertainment he provides her. She’s an only lady that doesn't get out enough and has retained a sharp mind, so she needs something to think about. I don’t even think that she is trying to control anything, I think her thoughts are that Coriolanus should do everything in his power to make himself look better, or give him more honor.
ReplyDeleteGood examples to support how she is focused on her son, and wants to keep him alive. I agree that she really has nothing else to do but to occupy herself with his affairs.
DeleteI completely agree. Volumina truly wants her son to succeed because of how much joy it brings her. Also, I agree with your point about how Volumina's involvement could be a result of her uneventful life. She is only trying to make her son better.
DeleteI agree, Meg-han. I think that Volumnia has an overwhelming sense of pride in her son's actions. Also, Volumnia is full cognizant of her son's arrogance and she is willing to do anything to improve his image. For these reasons alone, Volumnia happens to advise Coriolanus' political agenda.
DeleteI agree, Megora. She is very proud of her son and wants to make sure that those around him regard him the same way she does. This is the drive behind her involvement and advice giving--to maintain a good image for Coriolanus.
DeleteI don't agree with the critical argument. I don't think it is Volumnia's goal to wreak havoc on Rome through her son. She clearly manipulates him into apologizing to the Plebeians for his arrogant behavior, which would help Coriolanus regain the Plebeian's support. She only wants what is best for her son, and she desperately wants to see him succeed. In act one scene three, Volumnia describes how much joy seeing her son succeed brings her when she states, "'if my son were my husband, I should freelier rejoice in that absence wherein he won honour than in the
ReplyDeleteembracements of his bed where he would show most love.'" Seeing her son succeed brings her more joy than feeling her husband's embrace. She doesn't want to take advantage of her son. She loves him way too much to do this. In act one scene three, she also describes how she raised Coriolanus to be an honorable man. Having a son who is honorable is very important to her, shown by when Volumnia states, "'I had rather had eleven die nobly for their country than one voluptuously surfeit out of action.'" Volumnia wants her kids to have honor so badly that she would rather see them die with honor than live without it. If her plan was to destroy Rome through her son, Coriolanus would lose his honor. She cannot bear to see her son without honor, which is why she could never manipulate her son into destroying Rome. She raised him to be honorable. It would be impossible for her to be willing to corrupt the honor that Coriolanus possesses.
I agree with you Mark. I think that rather than wanting to gain power, Volumnia just simply wants to see her son make a name for himself in the world. Then maybe her only goal is that she will be perceived as a good mother.
DeleteI don't think that the critical argument is correct. I don't think that Coriolanus' mother wants her son to be more like her. Volumnia is a smart woman. Although she is entirely aware and surrounded by the sensitive issue of politics, all of the advice Volumnia gives Coriolanus is out of love. This is opposed to the secret lust for power and revenge suggested by the critical argument. Most mothers love seeing their children succeed, but this sentiment resonates particularly well in the case of Volumnia. In Act I Scene III, Volumnia says that, "I sprang not more in joy at first hearing he was a man-child than now in first seeing he had proved himself a man." Volumnia is very proud of her son and it gives her great pleasure to see him do well in battle. Additionally, later in Act I Scene III, Volumnia says that she would rather, "had rather had eleven [sons] die nobly for their country than one voluptuously surfeit out of action." By stating this, Volumnia proves that the idea of honor is very great to her. For these two reasons: the desire to have an honorable son, and her love for her son, Volumnia plays the role of political and public relations adviser for Coriolanus. Volumnia and Coriolanus are both short tempered, Volumnia even admits that she has a, " heart as little apt as yours [Coriolanus']." However, as Volumnia states in the next line she has, "a brain that leads my use of anger To better vantage." Volumnia's recognition of Coriolanus' arrogance helps lead her to tell him to apologize to the common folk. Volumnia is far too proud and concerned with the honor of her son to let any feelings of revenge propel her actions in life.
ReplyDeleteBut Conor, what if Volumnia only likes her son to be succesful because she wants power for herself. If her son is a great war hero, naturally, she might be able to benefit from his social status.
DeleteBut Colt, what evidence is there that she wants to benefit from her social status? I personally see none.
DeleteI do not think that Coriolanus' mother has any real desire to control her son other than her normal motherly duties to serve and protect. I do not see her trying to control her son for revenge necessarily, but I do see her giving Coriolanus strongly advised political ideas. When she is trying to convince her son to apologize to the people she tells Coriolanus exactly what she would do if she could do it. I also see her trying to cast her opinion to Coriolanus when she tries to convince him to fight because as a very supportive and confident mother, she believes that Coriolanus would have no problem with a war.
ReplyDeleteAlthough you say that Volumnia doesn't have any real desire to control her son's life, you continue by saying that she tries to convince her son to apologize by saying exactly what she would do in that situation. It would be interesting to try to determine where the line is between Volumnia wanting her son to be successful, and wanting him to be like her.
DeleteI think that it is very possible that Coriolanus's mother feels like she does not get enough power. She cares alot about Coriolanus in battle and she is very pleased when he is slaying his enemies. Although things were a little different back in the day, it still seems weird that she would like it so much when her son kills people. The only thing i can think of that does make sense is that she likes when her son is a war hero because she can feed off of his social status and therefor try to gain power for herself. If her son is a great warrior and respected by others, then naturally she might get a slice of that power for herself. She seems like she could be mad because she wants power. When her son is cast out of Rome, She curses the city and get very upset about it. This may be because if her son is not fighting for Rome and gaining social status, then she will fall into the shadows and will never get any power. Of course she must have been upset because she loves her son, but i think she also wanted the power.
ReplyDeleteIt’s clear that Coriolanus’s mother, Volumnia, enjoys living vicariously through her son, but her concerns about lack of opportunities for women do not seem to make her want to control and destroy. Instead, she seems like she’s simply interested in politics, and instead of thinking that she, as a woman, could play a role, Volumnia makes her impact through her influence on her son. She seems to be challenging her son so that he can potentially develop some of her qualities that could help him succeed. She loves her son and is extremely invested in his affairs because she really doesn’t have much else to do. She's not trying to control or destroy, she's simply trying to stay involved in her son's life (perhaps over-involved).
ReplyDeleteI like your argument, Ellie. I agree with your idea that she simply wants to play a role in politics through her son's life- as well as stay involved because of her love for Coriolanus
DeleteBased off of the action in Act III, I do not think that Volumnia wants to take control and destroy through the use of Coriolanus. I think that, as any mother would, Volumnia primarily wants her son to be as successful as he possibly can be. In response to whether she wants Coriolanus to be more like her, I believe that in the instance where Coriolanus is appealing to the common folk, she does considering she advises him to be more humble. However, she undermines the sincerity of this claim by adding that his humility might be dishonest. Also in the first Act, Volumnia expresses to Virgilia that she admires Coriolanus’s power on the battlefield, something that she does not possess, nor ever will. So in conclusion, I do not believe that Coriolanus’ mother wants Coriolanus to change, nor does she want to use and control him for her own political agenda.
ReplyDeleteI agree that she wants her son to be successful.
DeleteI do not agree with the statement. Instead, I believe that Volumnia hopes to help direct Coriolanus to not only allow him to be a successful leader, but to also bring honor to him and herself. By making him from a soldier to a politician Volunmia will not only bring praise to her son for his successful life, but to herself as well, for raising a thriving son. Yet when Coriolanus first shows hesitancy to become involved in politics Volumnia responds by saying, “At thy choice, then: / To beg of thee, it is my more dishonor / Than thou of them. Come all to ruin: let / Thy mother rather feel thy pride than fear” Although Volumnia wants to have her son become even more successful, she will allow him to choose what he wants, as long as he is confident with his choice. Even though Volumnia wants to live vicariously through her son and allow him to make a name for himself, she ultimately just wants her son to be happy even if that means going against her desires. Because of this I do not think that Volumnia wants him to be more like her, otherwise, she would have immediately forced Coriolanus to become involved with politics.
ReplyDeleteVolumnia definitely has power of Coriolanus. She seems to be the only person that can actually control his anger, and she uses this to her advantage. At times it seems like she is using Coriolanus. At one point she basically says that she is smarter than Coriolanus: "I have a heart as little apt as yours, / But yet a brain that leads my use of anger / To better vantage." She knows that she can push Coriolanus around a bit, so she uses his image to push her own power. After convincing Coriolanus to do something political instead of anger-provoked, she says "Thy valiantness was mine, thou suck'dst it from me; / But owe thy pride thyself." She knows that Coriolanus relies on her for guidance, so she uses him.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting quotes; I never thought of it that way.
DeleteI agree, I hadn't thought much about her control over his emotions, but you're right. The more ways she can manipulate him, the better.
DeleteThere’s no question that the manipulation of Coriolanus by his mother could be a result of women’s status in the culture. However, to claim that this is the only reason to why she is so prideful of him is somewhat misdirecting. Volumnia is a passive influence on him, but a strong passive influence, giving her more sway over him than most, but her actions speak more of a mother who wants what’s best for her son, not some power hungry matriarch who would like to be some sort of shadow puppeteer. Multiple reason fed into her attitude, coming from not only the oppressive atmosphere against women, but also the ability for a mother to live out the glory of her son as the one who spawned him.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with this critical argument. Coriolanus's mother doesn't want him to be more like her, rather she wants him to be more likable for the people. Since the people don't like Coriolanus it could create problems in the future, and she is wanting her son to stay in power so she can stay in power as well. Even though she is a woman, she can influence her son dramatically. The only point I would agree with would be that she might be frustrated by her son's arrogance and lack of morality. Without a sense of respect or warmth towards the people, it creates unneeded tension. I don't agree that she wants to fully control and destroy anything or anybody through her son. Sure, she would like to influence her son to do the "right thing," but she wouldn't push anything outside her limitations.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I would agree with you about the idea that she is frustrated by his arrogance and lack of morality, in fact I think she supplied a lot of that. She had said she raised him to be a soldier and I think that with his success she built up his ego. Thus making their relationship stronger and her power greater.
DeleteI wouldn’t necessarily say that she was explicitly manipulating her son for revenge due to her position in society. I believe that the position she has as his mother his more powerful than her in charge, and she knows it. I think that she views her son, Coriolanus, as more than just a family member but as her puppet. When he is banished in Act III, I believe she is crying not only for her son’s banishment but for her loss of power. She can be considered one of the sneakiest Machiavelli. Also, in Act I she admits to raising her son to be a great soldier and how she prides herself on his success. This goes to show how he has been manipulated by her from the very beginning. Considering that she is spending her time being involved with his family must mean that they are close. By creating using her influential powers she can manipulate to Coriolanus to get the things she wants. Instead of getting in trouble directly for ideas and actions, it would be Coriolanus, making her safe from harm. If people were to claim that she was the person behind his actions, they might look at her an think she’s only and old batty woman who can’t have such power. In the end she’s not seeking revenge as much as taking advantage of her role. I say, good for her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the argument above to a certain extent. I do believe that Coriolanus's mother is trying to live vicariously through him, even in the first act of the play we can see that. she kept talking about how she would happily wait for him to return to battle if it meant she could lye with him. however, I don't really feel like she is seeking any revenge or seeks to destroy anyone. she does give a lot of orders to her son, telling him what orders he should take and how to direct his power, but over all, she doesn't really tell him to destroy anyone or anything, she just wants her son to be on top and to have power.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact even though she does boss him around, she doesnt make him do anything that is too destructive.
DeleteI do not think that Coriolanus' mother wants him to be more like her. Yes, she is dommenering and powerful, however, I don't think she would leave her place as a woman and truly take the reigns. She can control him only to a certain degree without taking political action. Considering the time period that this play was written and the male dominant political scene at the time she would have to be more than bold to take political action. Also if she went to taking more actions to control her son, he might pick up on the fact that he was being manipulated. It is in the mother's best interest to keep her relationship with her son in it's current state to maintain the power and control she currently has over him.
ReplyDelete-FORREST PARKER
I agree with the statement that Coriolanus’s mother is overbearing and controlling living her life though her son but I don’t believe that her actions were a way of revenge or destruction. Because women weren’t allowed to be in power at that time I believe she used her son to live a life she could only dream of and not have. To the statement that Coriolanus’s mother wanted Coriolanus to be more like her I think is false because she seems to be very smart and deceiving which allows her to manipulate her son and so if he was more like her she wouldn’t be able to do that. I think that Coriolanus’s mother really cares about her son but cares about her self and her form of more power more.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that she doesn't want coriolanus to be like her because that way he would outsmart her.
DeleteI do think that the relationship that Coriolanus has with his mother, Vulumnia, is not normal, and at some points can seem inappropriate to the audience. I don’t, however, think that she wants revenge, or wants to take the power away from Coriolanus. She seems to just see politics as a game because she doesn’t have a role that will be in jeopardy if she does something wrong. She is living through Coriolanus and his power. I do think that deep down she wants Coriolanus to succeed, but doesn’t seem to want to let him do it on his own. She even puts his life at risk in battle to play the game of politics. Their relationship is creepy sometimes because of the interactions they have, the audience witnesses some sexual scenes that feel incestuous even if they are just talking. Overall, even though their relationship is unconventional it isn’t vengeful.
ReplyDelete